A rush transcript of “This Week with George Stephanopoulos” airing on Sunday, July 9, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the “This Week” transcript archive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This Week with George Stephanopoulos” starts right now.
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: 500 days of war. As Ukraine reaches a critical point in the battle, the U.S. approves cluster munitions banned by much of the world to help in the counteroffensive.
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: The Ukrainians are running out of ammunition. But it was not an easy decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: And President Biden to a high-stakes NATO summit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN: Ukraine still has further steps it needs to take before membership in NATO.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: But with no end to the war in sight, what comes next? This morning, the latest from Ukraine. Our conversation with President Zelenskyy in Kyiv.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Six months ago you said you would not cede any territory. Is your answer the same?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Yes.
RADDATZ: No territory? No Crimea?
ZELENSKYY: No territory. Crimea is our territory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Our exclusive access to those leading the fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: You think you can take Bakhmut?
GENERAL OLEKSANDR SYRSKYI: Yes, of course. I assure you.
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RADDATZ: And the stories of civilians caught in the violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: We were just about a mile and a half from here when that missile struck that building in this apartment complex.
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RADDATZ: Plus, National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby and all the week’s politics from our powerhouse roundtable.
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it’s “This Week.” Here now with Martha Raddatz.
RADDATZ: Good morning and welcome to “This Week.” It has now been 500 days since the first Russian missile strikes in Ukraine signal the start of an invasion that most of the world expected would end in a victory for Vladimir Putin in a matter of days.
I was on the ground in Ukraine that night in a country fighting for its very survival, among citizens facing an uncertain future. I just returned from another trip to Ukraine, a nation still at war, its future still uncertain, but no longer just on the defensive.
Its soldiers are engaged in a grinding effort to reclaim occupied land, armed with equipment and training from the U.S.-led global coalition. It’s a critical moment in this conflict. Ukraine’s performance against the larger dug-in Russian force could determine the trajectory of a war that has left more than 9,000 civilians dead and forced 11 million Ukrainians, a quarter of the population, from their homes.
With the counteroffensive in motion and ahead of President Biden’s trip to Europe for the NATO summit, where leaders are expected to debate Ukraine’s push to join the alliance, we met up with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the presidential offices in the heart of Kyiv, heavily fortified and surrounded by the security.
We spent more than an hour with the president talking about the war, the country’s future and the spirit of the Ukrainian people. We began by asking about the NATO summit and the counteroffensive.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ: There’s a NATO summit next week. Have you made up your mind whether you will go?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Vilnius the summit is very important. If there is no unity regarding the technical invitation for Ukraine to join the alliance, it’s all a matter of political will just to find the proper wording and invite Ukraine. It would be an important message to say that NATO is not afraid of Russia. Ukraine should get clear security guarantees while it is not in NATO. And that is a very important point. Only under these conditions our meeting would be meaningful. Otherwise, it’s just another politics.
RADDATZ: So, it sounds unlikely that you will go.
ZELENSKYY: Why?
RADDATZ: From what you just said.
ZELENSKYY: I think we’ll do a lot of work.
RADDATZ: What does that mean? You’ll do a lot of work?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): We are working with our partners. We are working on security guarantees. We are also working on helping our partners to make some conclusions for this upcoming NATO summit meeting, and we would like to have all the decisions to be made during this summit.
In this case, it’s obvious that I’ll be there and I’ll be doing whatever I can in order to, so to speak, expedite that solution, to have an agreement with our partners. I don’t want to go to Vilnius for fun if the decision has been made beforehand.
RADDATZ: What is your assessment of how the counteroffensive is going right now?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): All of us, we want to do it faster. Because every day means new losses of Ukrainians. We are advancing. We are not stuck in one place. We’ve already overtaken that initiative. Several months ago, in some places in the east, we had to retreat. In some other communities, we would regain lost ground, but it was kind of a stagnation, meaning loss of manpower and equipment. And of course, we would all like to see the counteroffensive accomplished in a shorter period of time, but there’s reality.
Today. the initiative is on our side.
RADDATZ: You’ve read western officials. You’ve read others saying they wanted it to move faster. Did you feel pressure?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Well, I don’t feel any pressure at all. They seem to understand how challenging and difficult it is, how difficult it is to survive and how difficult it is to fight, to seize initiative in our war with Russia given the total strength of Russians and amount of equipment they have in their possession. So, they are not pressurizing me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: The counteroffensive now at a critical point, with some of the fiercest fighting yet. Inch by inch, Ukrainian soldiers trying to regain territory lost to the Russians in the south and east. General Oleksandr Syrskyi in charge of the eastern flank, including the city of Bakhmut.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Do you think you can take Bakhmut?
GEN. OLEKSANDR SYRSKYI, COMMANDER, UKRAINIAN GROUND FORCES: Yes, of course. I assure you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: In Central Ukraine, we saw soldiers training for these battles, the military looking for help anywhere it can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: These are all border guard officers, law enforcement trained, but now, they’re training for combat.
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RADDATZ: Simulating an assault, seizing enemy positions and practicing evacuating the wounded, which will almost certainly become a reality, Ukrainians suffering heavy losses in this counteroffensive.
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RADDATZ: The losses have been great in this counteroffensive?
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RADDATZ: Despite the Ukrainian casualties, the general said, the enemy is suffering eight to 10 times higher troop losses.
General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi commanding troops in the south, telling me the full power of the Ukrainian military has yet to be seen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: The main assault is still yet to come in this counteroffensive?
I’m sure of that, he says. We haven’t reached our full potential in terms of troops and equipment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: And a big help, the Ukrainians believe, cluster munitions, which the Biden administration has just announced it will provide, despite the fact it is a weapon is banned by most NATO allies. A move Andriy Yermak, Zelenskyy’s top adviser, says will make a difference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDRIY YERMAK, HEAD OF UKRAINIAN PRESIDENTIAL OFFICE: You know, we ask only these things which are very important. And of course, now we need it to win this war.
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RADDATZ: Since the war began, the U.S. has promised more than $41 billion in aid to Ukraine, including Patriot defense systems, artillery and Bradley fighting vehicles. But Ukraine has insisted that what it needs most is help from the sky. F-16 fighter jets, the U.S. is allowing the allies to send have yet to arrive even with the counteroffensive at a critical point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: You still don’t have those F-16s, and there’s other — there are other weapons you want as well. Can you succeed without them?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): F-16 or any other equipment that we do need will give us an opportunity to move faster, to save more lives, to stand our ground for a longer time. But the most important thing is the spirit of our people.
RADDATZ: But, Mr. President, you talk about lives being lost because it takes longer. And in the same breath, you want and wanted the weapons you have right away. So, has the foot dragging from the allies or from the U.S. cost lives?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Some weapons we have been provided by our allies help us save lives, and I appreciate that. Of course, foot dragging will lead to more lives losses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: And losses are a daily occurrence, and not just for Ukrainian troops. The sirens, a stark reminder, the missiles a constant fear. This week, the deadliest attack on civilians in Lviv since the war began, at least 10 killed.
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RADDATZ: We were just about a mile and a half from here when that missile struck that building in this apartment complex. We could hear the powerful blast. You could feel the shockwaves.
RADDATZ (voice-over): Seventy-six-year-old Halyna showered with glass covered in blood. I was so frightened, she said. And 15-year-old David Ivanyk running scared from his apartment.
DAVID IVANYK, SURVIVOR: When I saw the rocket falling into the house, the explosion, the wave of the explosions just throw me away to —
RADDATZ: It knocked you back.
IVANYK: Yes. It knocked me back to her house. And I was in shock, I didn’t know what to do because it was really scary for me for the first time experience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: And there is an even greater fear. Officials issuing dire warnings about a potential attack by the Kremlin on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which Russia has controlled since the early days of the war. President Zelenskyy concerned that Russia is prepared to blow up the power plant.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Yes, technically, they are prepared. Can we, while analyzing this, think that Russia is planning a local explosion in order to stop Ukrainian operations on the battlefield? Yes. As if they are going to lose more initiative on the battlefield than they have lost at the moment, they will make some additional steps in order to make the entire world to be afraid of the global nuclear disaster and halt all military action on the battlefield.
RADDATZ: If something happens in Zaporizhzhia, if they do use explosives, is Ukraine prepared for that?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Our appropriate institutions are ready. They continue working on that at the level of the Interior Ministry, the state emergency service. They are working on different scenarios. This is their task. This is their responsibility.
RADDATZ: Zelenskyy says he does believe Putin has been weakened after Wagner group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin launched an attempted mutiny against top Russian military leadership. Prigozhin’s whereabouts now unconfirmed, despite claims he is back in Russia after a brief stay in Belarus.
Are you concerned Prigozhin or his soldiers could come back into Ukraine?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Well, we are not afraid of Prigozhin. We were not afraid of him when he was standing, so to speak, strong in Bakhmut. I think that our armed forces are stronger because no matter how many members of Wagner group were there, they couldn’t prevail. But, nevertheless, they were stronger than their own Russian army. Wagner was more powerful.
RADDATZ: Why do you think he did this? And why did he stop?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): As of today, he has become a political figure. And this, to me, must have been his primary objective. And that he has not gone until the very end, was it in his plans, or no? Well, I don’t know that for sure.
RADDATZ: Putin is now trying to rally people around him, trying to show strength and there are some analysts who even say in the short term he might have gained from this, do you think so?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): And what is his strength? Well, first of all, he showed that Russian regions are not protected. Because mercenaries with some equipment and weapons were very close to Moscow.
He has demonstrated to the entire world and Ukraine in particular, that, as a matter of fact, all of his troops are on the Ukrainian territory. At the moment, he doesn’t have military force inside Russia, and his civilian population is not protected.
And he also demonstrated that there is a signal that there might be another mutiny in Russia, a revolution. More than that, there are many people who might support such a mutiny.
RADDATZ: But with all the threats, all the losses, 500 days into the war, Zelenskyy remaining adamant Ukraine will not cede any territory to Russia.
Six months ago, you said you would not cede any territory to Russia to end this war. We’re now 16 months in. Is your answer the same?
ZELENSKYY: Yes.
RADDATZ: No territory? No Crimea?
ZELENSKYY: No territory. Crimea is our territory.
RADDATZ: You met with the CIA director on what was supposed to be a secret trip.
ZELENSKYY: That’s great secret.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): We began to speak about it. Yeah.
RADDATZ: With “The Washington Post” — “The Washington Post” said —
ZELENSKYY (through translator): “Washington Post”, OK.
RADDATZ: — in that meeting, Ukrainian officials laid out a scenario that they thought would end the war, which was that by this fall, Ukrainian troops would advance to the edge of Ukraine’s border with Crimea, you would agree not to take it by force, and then push Moscow into negotiations. Is that a scenario that is feasible?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Well, it’s absolutely clear, logical rhetoric, that at that moment, when Ukraine will reach the administrative border with a temporarily occupied Ukrainian Peninsula, Crimea, it’s very likely that Putin will be forced to seek dialect with the civilized world, unlike it was before the full-scale invasion. Because he will be more weakened and he’ll be seeking for some other ways, possibly diplomatic ways, and will likely be sending relevant messages.
RADDATZ: So, that is a feasible scenario?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Well, the war is to be over with justice and peace, and with us regaining our territorial integrity. Why? Because the end of the hot stage of the war and freezing the conflict would not mean the end of the war.
RADDATZ: Tell me how you think Ukraine will be doing a year from now, five years from now? What is your place in the world?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Ukraine has already got a place in the world for itself. I consider that as a fact. We are now a country that is respected, a country that is really fighting for human values, for human rights, for freedom, for democracy, and everyone has already understood that it is exactly such a country. I assume that Ukraine will be a valued NATO countries’ partner with actually strongest armed forces in Europe.
90 percent of Ukrainians want to be part of NATO. More than 90 percent of Ukrainians want to be part of the European Union. After the war, we’ll take some time, we’ll make necessary changes to our legal framework in order to finally become E.U. member state.
I think that the country with such potential is important for the unity. And what is more important is that we are really a democratic nation that is dying for that on the battlefield.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ: As for future support from Americans, Zelenskyy is watching the U.S. elections closely, but says, the choice is up to the American people.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: If I’m president, I will have that war settled in one day, 24 hours.
RADDATZ: Donald Trump says he would end the war in 24 hours if he was elected president.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): It seems to me that the sole desire to bring the war to an end is beautiful. But this desire should be based on some real-life experience. Well, it looks as if Donald Trump had already these 24 hours once in his time. We were at war, not a full-scale war, but we were at war, and as I assume, he had that time at his disposal, but he must have had some other priorities.
If we are talking about ending the war at the cost of Ukraine, in other words to make us give up our territories, well, I think, in this way, Biden could have brought it to an end even in five minutes, but we would not agree.
RADDATZ: What would you say to those Americans who say, we’ve given enough, we have our own problems, we can’t continue to do that?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): I would like to say thank you to all Americans for what you have done, and I appreciate those who say that you’ve done enough. Trust me, no matter what I appreciate help.
When it comes to the word enough, well, we, Ukrainians, are not people known for excessive appetites. Our victory is enough for us. Honestly, when we have enough for our victory, then it will be enough.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ: And to see more of our reporting from Ukraine, be sure to watch “500 Days of War,” debuting Monday on “ABC News Live” at 8:30 Eastern, 9:30 Pacific.
Coming up, after the controversial decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine, President Biden is headed oversees for that major NATO summit, and we’ll speak with his national security council spokesman, John Kirby, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN ANCHOR: Ukraine wants membership in NATO. Should it get membership in NATO?
PRESIDENT JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR.: I don’t think it’s ready for membership in NATO. I don’t think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment, in the middle of a war. It’s premature to say, to call for a vote, you know, now, because there’s other qualifications that need to be met, including democratization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: President Biden saying Ukraine is not ready to join NATO, as he prepares to leave for a five-day trip to Europe, including that major NATO summit, where the war in Ukraine will take center stage, as will the president’s move to send cluster munitions to Ukraine, despite concerns over the danger they possibly pose to millions.
ABC’s Elizabeth Schulze is in London, the first stop on the president’s three-country trip.
Good morning, Elizabeth.
ELIZABETH SCHULZE, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Martha. President Biden will arrive here in London tonight for the first stop of that diplomatic push intended to shore up support for Ukraine among key European allies. The president will meet tomorrow with U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and will sit down for the first time with King Charles of Windsor Castle since he was coronated.
The centerpiece of this trip is the two-day NATO summit in Lithuania. There the president will have to defend his decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine, amid criticism from a growing list of U.S. allies, including Spain and Germany. And he faces the major challenge of keeping NATO united and providing ongoing military aid to Ukraine at a critical moment in the war, as that counter-offensive stalls.
NATO members are also at odds over expanding the alliance, including a road-map for Ukraine’s membership. The White House insists that Ukraine will not join while it’s at war with Russia. The president will end this trip with a visit to Finland, now the newest member of NATO.
But one big, outstanding issue is if member states can come to an agreement on Sweden joining the alliance. When I asked National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan if that could happen at the summit, he would not rule it out. Martha?
RADDATZ: Thanks so much, Elizabeth.
And joining us now is the White House National Security Council spokesman, John Kirby.
Good to see you this morning, John. So let’s start with this week’s NATO summit. President Biden said Ukraine is not ready to join NATO; steps have to be taken. What has to happen?
JOHN KIRBY, NSC COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: Well, they still have to work on some reforms, political reforms, in the country. And of course they’re still at war right now. And the president wants to focus on making sure that they succeed in that endeavor. And as he has said many times, if they get — if they were, hypothetically, to get NATO membership now, well, then NATO’s at war with Russia.
So I think we’ve got to focus on making sure they can succeed right now and give them the time and space to continue to work on the reforms that are necessary for any NATO ally to become a member.
RADDATZ: Reforms, example of?
KIRBY: Well, political — just political reforms, economic reforms, governance — good governance, those kinds of things.
RADDATZ: And President Zelenskyy told me that, if the alliance is not unified in supporting Ukraine’s eventual membership, it will only make Vladimir Putin stronger.
KIRBY: I think what you’re going to see in Vilnius is a couple of things. You’re going to see the allies really stayed unified on supporting Ukraine in this fight against Russia on their soil. You’re going to see commitments by all the allies to continue to support their efforts to succeed on the battlefield.
You’re also going to see from all the allies a concerted, unified approach to making it clear that NATO is eventually going to be in Ukraine’s future, and that in between the time of the war ending and that happening, that the allies will continue to help Ukraine defend itself.
RADDATZ: And I want to turn to the war. Some former senior U.S. officials affiliated with the Council on Foreign Relations apparently met with Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, in April.
What was that about? And was National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan aware of those meetings?
KIRBY: Mr. Sullivan was not involved. We weren’t participating in that. These were private entities, private individuals meeting with Russian officials, certainly within their right to do that.
And I don’t — I don’t know what — how much foreknowledge he had on this, but it wasn’t like the United States or the government was involved in any way or just meeting —
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: But he was aware of it?
KIRBY: I think, in general, we were aware that discussions were happening at a private level. But we weren’t passing messages through them. We weren’t setting the stage for them. We weren’t encouraging those discussions or engendering them in any way.
RADDATZ: And those discussions were about negotiations with Russia? Shouldn’t Ukraine have known about those meetings as well?
KIRBY: The president is being clear that we will have no discussions with Russia about negotiating an end to this war without Ukraine at the table.
RADDATZ: But shouldn’t they have known about these private meetings if Jake Sullivan —
(CROSSTALK)
KIRBY: Look, again, these were private discussions. And the United States government was not involved in any way.
So, I can’t speak to the degree to which Ukrainian officials knew they were going on or not. They were private discussions not sanctioned by the United States government. But again, we’ve been clear, nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
RADDATZ: Is it helpful for private citizens like Richard Haass, former president of the Council of Foreign Relations, to be having conversations with Sergey Lavrov?
KIRBY: It is not unusual for people like Mr. Haass or officials at Council on Foreign Relations or other private entities to have discussions with Russian officials about any range of issues — I mean, especially, you would think on the Council on Foreign Relations, that that would not be something that be atypical.
RADDATZ: The Ukrainian officials I’ve talked to since then are not happy about that, are not happy about those private citizens talking about negotiations —
KIRBY: Well —
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: — when they don’t want to negotiate right now.
KIRBY: Look, you can — you can hardly blame them for being concerned about any potential negotiations or discussions with the Russians about ending the war that they’re not included in, which is again why the president has been adamant. They’ll be nothing said about Ukraine or by ending this war without Ukraine at the table.
So I can understand the angst and concern about this. But again, I want to assure, the United States government was not behind these talks.
RADDATZ: Okay, let’s talk about the cluster munitions. The president made the decision to send cluster munitions. They are banned in so many places around the world —
KIRBY: Yeah.
RADDATZ: — including most of our allies. Why send them to Ukraine?
KIRBY: Simple. This is about keeping Ukraine in the fight. You were just there. You talked to President Zelenskyy about the counteroffensive, and in some ways, it’s not going as fast as he would like.
They are using artillery at a very accelerated rate, Martha, many thousands of rounds per day. This is literally a gunfight in — all along, from the Donbas, all the way down towards Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. And so, they’re running out of inventory.
We are trying to ramp up our production of the kind of artillery shells that they’re using most. But that production is still not where we wanted it to be.
So, we’re going to see these additional artillery shells that have cluster bomblets in them to help bridge the gap as we ramp up production of normal 155 artillery shells. It will be —
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: So, you’re sending those —
KIRBY: — the fight.
RADDATZ: — cluster munitions because we don’t have enough of the kind of munitions they need.
KIRBY: That is right.
RADDATZ: I want to ask you why the U.S. has never banned them before. They’re obviously a threat to civilians if they don’t explode. Why is the U.S. not banning them, period?
KIRBY: We are very mindful of the concerns about civilian casualties and unexploded ordnance being picked up by civilians or children and being hurt. Of course, we’re mindful of that.
And we’re going to focus with Ukraine with demining efforts. In fact, we’re doing it right now and we will when war conditions permit. But these munitions do provide a useful battlefield capability. And I will remind that while Russia is using them in Ukraine, in an aggressive war on another country, and indiscriminately killing civilians, the Ukrainians will be using these cluster munitions, obviously, which have a very low dud rate, but they’ll be using them to defend their own territory, hitting Russian positions.
And I think we can all agree that more civilians have been and will continue to be killed by Russian forces, with — whether it’s cluster munitions, drones, missile attacks, or just frontal assaults, than will likely be hurt by the use of these cluster munitions fired at Russian positions inside Ukrainian territory.
RADDATZ: And — and just quickly, John, one of the things President Zelenskyy wishes he had right now is those F-16s.
KIRBY: Yes.
RADDATZ: You said they probably won’t be there until the end of the year.
KIRBY: That’s right.
RADDATZ: Is there any way to speed that up? He says foot-dragging costs lives.
KIRBY: Well, there’s been no foot-dragging on this. In fact, we’re going to be working with some allies and partners to get the F-16 pilots the pilot training going very, very soon. And we’re going to work to get those jets to Ukraine just as quickly as possible. I mean, obviously, we — we understand the need, but it will take many months.
And, again, you — you don’t want planes on the ground, on the tarmac, with no trained pilots. You’ve got to get the pilots trained. These are modern, sophisticated aircraft. It’s going to take a little time to get these pilots ready to go. And there’s also a maintenance trail you’ve got to be able to put in place, logistics and sustainment. These are — these are — these are high-tech jets and systems, and we want to make sure the Ukrainians are ready for them when they arrive.
RADDATZ: OK. Thanks so much for joining us this morning, John.
KIRBY: You bet, a pleasure.
RADDATZ: Always appreciate it.
The Roundtable weighs in, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RADDATZ: The Roundtable is here, ready to go. We’ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Are you at all concerned about the upcoming presidential election and continued aid?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It is important for us to preserve that bipartisan support of Ukraine. We understand that there are some dangerous signals coming from particular actual politicians in the U.S. regarding the reduce of assistance for Ukraine, or there might be some alternative vision and that is dangerous for us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: More of my interview there with President Zelenskyy, weighing in on the 2024 presidential election and its impact on Ukraine.
So, let’s bring in the roundtable.
“Wall Street Journal” national security reporter, Vivian Salama; “Washington Post” editorial writer and columnist, Charles Lane; “New York Times” staff opinion writer, Jane Coaston; and “Politico Playbook” co-author Rachael Bade.
Good morning to you all.
And, Vivian, I want to start with you. You heard Elizabeth Schulze and John Kirby preview the president’s trip to Europe for the NATO meetings. How big of an impact will this have on the war and Ukraine’s effort to gain NATO membership, do you think?
VIVIAN SALAMA, WALL STREET JOURANL NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, this is the big looming question going in to this summit, and unfortunately for Ukraine, which has lobbied that essentially membership will deter any future Russian attacks, there isn’t consensus within NATO members right now, among NATO members, and particularly in the U.S., which has said over and over again, that they do not believe that it is the time for Ukrainian NATO membership.
And there’s multiple reasons for that, but essentially it boils down to, A, not wanting to draw the U.S. into a broader conflict with Russia, which is the concern when you have repeated attacks by Russia. And secondly, the fact that they need to clean up house a little bit more before they are ready for that step.
And so, a very disappointing start to the summit for Ukraine, but they are hopeful at least to get some security assurances moving forward that they — that NATO will still continue to support them regardless of their status.
RADDATZ: And, Chuck, one of the things President Zelenskyy said in some of its aides, and President Zelenskyy didn’t say it outright, but basically those NATO allies who are not supporting them coming into NATO, are afraid of Russia.
CHARES LANE, WASHINGTON POST EDITORIAL WRITER AND COLUMNIST: This has been the dynamic throughout the entire war, if we do too much to help Ukraine, will we provoke Russia to do more? And I think what President Zelenskyy is frustrated by is, his belief like what more can you do to provoke them? They’ve already attacked us. They’ve already committed aggression.
RADDATZ: I mean, he essentially says, we’re already — the world is already at war with Russia.
LANE: Exactly. And furthermore, many of the things that Russia has threatened have not materialized — the nuclear threat and so on and so forth. And so, I fully — I think everyone can understand his frustration.
And nevertheless, NATO is — it’s run by committee. It’s run by consensus. And the reality is, when there’s different assessments among the countries about what the right way to proceed is, you’re going to wind up at the lowest common denominator, the point on concen — where they can all reach consensus. And for now, that’s not going to be NATO membership for Ukraine.
RADDATZ: And, Rachael, Zelenskyy clearly worries, as you just heard, about domestic politics here, as well. Could there be change? Could there be backing off from that Ukrainian assistance?
RACHAEL BADE, POLITICO PLAYBOOK CO-AUTHOR: Yeah. I mean, clearly, there’s a split in the Republican Party right now, with half of the lawmakers in Congress who are Republican supporting — continuing ongoing support for Ukraine, and then Republicans who are, sort of, following Donald Trump’s lead here and saying, you know, “We’ve done enough. We need to, sort of, back up.”
And I think this is really going to come to a head in the next couple of weeks because July really is appropriation season on Capitol Hill. Lawmakers are going to start writing those spending bills. And Kevin McCarthy’s a top ally of Donald Trump. And he has very much been critical of Ukraine funding.
And so, you know, it is going to be potentially problematic for — for Ukraine if lawmakers are not able to come to a consensus and the bipartisan support we’ve seen for years for helping Ukraine starts to very much whittle — whittle backwards.
RADDATZ: And, Jane, obviously big news of the week were those cluster munitions. You essentially heard John Kirby saying there, “If we’d had the other kind of ammunition they needed, we wouldn’t have to send cluster munitions.”
But — but this is a big deal.
JANE COASTON, NEW YORK TIMES STAFF OPINION WRITER & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: This is a very big deal, especially because, at the micro level, we are talking about a form of munitions that has a 10 percent to 40 percent dud rate, which means they can be incredibly dangerous for civilians. You know, it doesn’t explode right away, but it might explode a week from now, two weeks from now. And especially if we are — if people are using these weapons in — like, as Russia has been…
RADDATZ: As they will — yeah.
COASTON: As they will be. They are using them in populated areas. But I think, at the macro level, I think that we’re getting to the point of, like, what are we trying to do? What is Russia trying to do with this counteroffensive? What — what are they saying? What is Ukraine trying to do with this counteroffensive? What are they saying? What are we trying to actually accomplish here?
And especially because the cluster munitions, as you mentioned, as we discussed, this is, kind of, the weapon of last resort. What comes after this? Where do we go from here?
RADDATZ: And — and — and they made this decision this week. Again, we heard why John Kirby said they’re sending those cluster munitions. But why now? I mean, they have been pushing for more ammo, more ammo. Did — did the U.S. just finally say “We just don’t have it?”
SALAMA: Well, that is definitely one of the issues. And so we go into this — obviously, the Ukrainians have been asking for cluster munitions for ages. They think that it would be much more effective in this trench warfare that we see in Ukraine right now.
But, ultimately, it boils down to the strain on the defense industry right now. We’re running out of ammunition. We’re running out of essentially systems that we can send the Ukrainians. And that’s not just here in the United States. It’s something I hear when I travel all around the world. Every single one of these allies that has been supporting and funding and fueling Ukraine’s fight with assistance are now saying we don’t have anything left.
And so the cluster munitions was a very hard decision for the Biden administration. It was controversial. The Europeans are against it. But, ultimately, this is where we stand now because there just isn’t anything left at this moment to send.
RADDATZ: And, Chuck, let’s turn to politics here. Here’s my transition. Mike Pence was in Ukraine a couple of weeks ago. But he went on the offensive this week and attacked Donald Trump, for some positive — fairly positive things he has said in the past about Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin. Is there an opening for Mike Pence right now?
CHARLES LANE, WASHINGTON POST EDITORIAL AND COLUMNIST: Well, I think the Republican base, by all indications, is fully committed with Donald Trump. I interpret those events more as almost like trying to find something that worked to dislodge this firm grip Trump has on the party. There doesn’t seem to be, so far, an opening for anyone, even somebody much better funded, like Ron DeSantis, who seems to have peaked at 20 percent. My view of the campaign, as it stands right now, is both parties seem to be on course to stage a 2020 rematch.
RADDATZ: A rematch.
LANE: And it will take a major disruption, and I don’t know where it would come from — an indictment doesn’t seem to have been sufficient — to change that dynamic.
RADDATZ: And exactly that, Rachael. The indictment — indictments don’t seem to make any difference with Donald Trump, huge fund-raising.
BADE: Yeah, I — I have talked to so many Republicans who privately — they won’t say this out loud, of course — privately were hoping that these indictments would gradually, over time, whittle away support for Trump in the Republican base. The opposite is happening. You look at $35 million. That’s how much Trump has raised in the second quarter of this year. That is double what he raised before these indictments.
And it really stands to show that funders are rallying behind him. Republican voters are doing the same. And again, it just opens up this question about how can any Republican take him down or — or whittle down that lead he has?
I mean, the narrative right now for Ron DeSantis, who is obviously the candidate right behind him — not right behind him, 20 points behind him, but the one who’s closest nonetheless, the narrative right now for him is that he has stalled. And the more people know about him, the less they like him.
And so, it’s — look, it’s looking like Donald Trump. I don’t know see how that narrative is going to shake anytime soon.
RADDATZ: And do you see — Jane, who is Ron DeSantis trying to appeal to? I mean, he had some…
(CROSSTALK)
COASTON: The internet?
(LAUGHTER)
Really, it’s interesting to me that this entire campaign from DeSantis seems to be arguing, remember those things you liked about Donald Trump, I’m him but I’m really mean also. Like, his entire campaign seems aimed at an audience of people who are largely present on the internet, these so-called extremely online. And for instance, he’s been repeatedly hitting Donald Trump this week for being, like, comparatively centrist on LGBT issues. And you’ve heard from lot of cabin Republicans, you’ve seen Caitlyn Jenner saying, like, “What is going on here?”
And obviously, I think that the DeSantis campaign has — they have — what gets me is that he is an actual governor of an actual state. He has a lot of things he could talk about, especially to an audience of Republicans that are tired of Trump. They are tired of just acrimony; they want to get things done. And they have — you know, there is — here is a governor of a state that is doing well. That — he was more than victorious in his re-election campaign.
And now, he’s running to be, like — to appeal to people on fortune [ph]? What is this? It’s a strange campaign when he talked about how he opened up Florida and defeated COVID, whatever. And instead, he’s like, no. I am going to run as the most right-wing, edge-lord person you have ever seen on the internet, and make Donald Trump seem kind of chill. Do you know how hard it is to make Donald Trump seem chill?
(LAUGHTER)
He is doing it.
RADDATZ: So, maybe let me ask you this. Does that mean somebody from the GOP might say, “I’m going to be a late entry here? Let them battle it out.” Or is that off the table?
SALAMA: The realistic and short answer is it’s probably off the table. Anyone who would at this point want to go in, maybe wanting to raise their public profile, but the fact of the matter is, Trump is so far ahead, as Rachael was saying, in fundraising, in polling. Plus, the RNC has imposed some pretty strict guidelines with regard to qualifying for next month’s first presidential primary debate.
And so, at this stage, it’s about what your reasoning is for it. If you think you’re going to win, the chances are unlikely.
RADDATZ: I want to turn to — I’m going to stay on Donald Trump, but turn to climate change. I want you to hear what he said on the trail in Iowa this week, talking about climate change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) FOMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They’re not worried about a country that’s 600 miles away, that’s loaded up with nuclear weapons. That’s not a risk. But the oceans rising over the next 300 years, that’s a risk. It creates more beachfront property actually, that’s the way you have to view it.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: OK. So this came in the middle of a historic global heat wave in which the earth reached its hottest day ever recorded three days in a row. And yet, the front-runner in the Republican Party says that.
LANE: Well, he’s saying it because the polls show that the one group in this country that’s least concerned about climate change are Republican voters. So, that’s why he gets the response he does. The reality though is that, I checked the numbers in preparation for this show, that we’re about to breach — the World Meteorological Organization just came out with this information. We’re about to reach 1.5 degrees centigrade above pre-industrial levels for the first time at some point in the next five years. Even with the Inflation Reduction Act and all of the climate policy included in that, there’s little chance that the U.S. will meet its targets. So this is just happening.
RADDATZ: And very quickly if we could, Rachael, the Democrats are really seizing this as an issue, though.
BADE: Yeah, absolutely. They see clips like that of Donald Trump sort of dismissing climate change and they literally salivate at the opportunity of running against him. I mean Biden has, obviously, legislation that he can tout on the campaign trail saying, look, Democrats have tried to do something about this. There’s more work to be done but elect Democrats because — if you do look at the polls, even though there is a crop of Republicans who Trump is catering to, who don’t believe in climate change, overall, the polls show that most voters increasingly do believe it’s real and that it needs to be addressed.
RADDATZ: That’s going to be around for a very long time, and we’ll follow-up on that. Thanks for coming, all of you.
Coming up, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is in China for the second high-level American visit in recent weeks. We’re on the scene in Beijing, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET YELLEN, TREASURY SECRETARY: The U.S. and China have significant disagreements. Those disagreements need to be communicated clearly and directly. The world is big enough for both of our countries to thrive. Both nations have an obligation to responsibly manage this relationship, to find a way to live together and share in global prosperity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is wrapping up her four-day trip to China, urging better communication between the world’s largest economies as the two countries work to repair relations at their lowest point in decades.
ABC News foreign correspondent Britt Clennett is in Beijing with the very latest — Britt.
BRITT CLENNETT, ABC FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. Well, the secretary’s trip here is all about repair work on those frayed relations with China. But serious points of tension are still brewing. And Yellen hasn’t been shy to criticize China’s coercive economic policies.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLENNETT (voice-over): Another high-stakes attempt to find common ground. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen arriving in Beijing in the latest effort to convince China the U.S. is sincere about getting relations back on track.
YELLEN: What we do, both in the bilateral sphere as well as on the broader global stage, shapes the lives and livelihoods of the people in our countries and beyond.
CLENNETT (voice-over): But behind the smiles and friendly rhetoric, hefty grievances are brewing, not least of all on trade. Just days ahead of her visit, China announcing restrictions on two crucial metals used in computer chips while the Biden administration is considering additional limitations on China’s access to critical technology.
In a meeting with American business leaders, Yellen calling out China for its unfair economic practices.
CLENNETT: Yellen now meeting Premier Li Qiang. He’s China’s number two and in charge of the entire economy.
CLENNETT (voice-over): Yellen telling Li that while tough decisions sometimes need to be made for the sake of American national security…
YELLEN: We seek healthy economic competition that is not winner-take-all, but with a fair set of rules open for both of our countries.
CLENNETT (voice-over): That’s a message she reiterated to her main counterpart, the two hammering out details in face-to-face meetings that lasted more than seven hours.
He Lifeng telling Yellen that Chinese President Xi Jinping believes relations should be stable. And in a rare reference to the Chinese spy balloon incident, saying it was “a pity.” Although not addressing the recent Chinese-U.S. military confrontations, cutting off a U.S. Destroyer in international waters and buzzing a U.S. plane above the South China Sea.
But for all the talking, this is another important test to see how precarious the relationship really is. Yellen’s visit follows Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s trip last month. The goodwill turning sour a few days later, when President Biden referred to Xi Jinping as a dictator. Here in Beijing, attitude towards relations with the U.S. are mixed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This man saying, the leaders of China and the U.S. have different ways of seeing things.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For us, we’re happy to see the communication is going on.
CLENNETT (voice-over): China may find it hard to ignore the economic elephant in the room. $360 billion in tariffs imposed under President Trump exactly five years ago and export controls that have picked up under the Biden Administration and a bipartisan push by Congress, taking an increasingly hard line on china.
COL. STEVE GANYARD, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: The U.S. and china are not at war but they are certainly in conflict. And that conflict centers on the economies of both China and the U.S., and who can gain strategic advantage in the years to come.
CLENNETT (voice-over): For both sides, gaining that advantage will be complicated, as the world’s two biggest economies are very much intertwined, accounting for $690 billion worth of trade last year alone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CLENNETT (on camera): So, what’s next? Well, probably more of these kinds of visits, which are all working towards an expected meeting between President Biden and Chinese leader Xi Jinping in the fall. Martha?
RADDATZ: And we will be following it all closely. Britt Clennett in Beijing for us. Thank you. We’ll be right back.
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RADDATZ: And that’s all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Before we go, one more reminder, tune into ABC News live tomorrow evening at 8:30 p.m. Eastern for much more of our reporting from Ukraine. And have a great day.
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